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Should we be able to sell downloaded material second hand?


15 replies to this topic

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Poll: Should we be able to sell downloaded material second hand? (10 member(s) have cast votes)

Should we be able to sell downloaded material second hand?

  1. Yes, of course we should, we paid for it in the first place so we should be able to do what we like (9 votes [90.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 90.00%

  2. Yes, I think we should, but I can understand and appreciate where the concern would come from by the media giants (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. No, not really, downloads are different from physical media and it means if someone downloaded 100 tracks they could sell them easily after copying (1 votes [10.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

  4. No, you shouldn't be able sell anything downloaded second hand, it most likely has already been copied anyway (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

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#1

marko

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    It was argued not long ago that the selling of second hand physical items such as music CD's, DVD movies and so on should be illegal and that it constituted a copyright breach - of course, it was the media giants who initiated this argument and who, thankfully, lost their fight to stop people selling on media they no longer use.

    But whilst it is now perfectly legal to sell your unwanted CD's, it has been ruled that you cannot sell your second hand downloads because these items apparently downloaded media doesn't carry the "first sale doctrine" like physical media does.

    A company called "ReDigi" was sued byCapitol Records in January 2012 for "making unauthorised copies of music" although the company insist's that all users first downloadproprietary software which verifies the music was bought legally before removing the download from the users computer and uploading to their own servers for re-sale.

    Now, many people may argue that there was nothing stopping the owner from making a copy of the download before hand, and this would appear to be the argument of the ruling, or at least the ruling says it is much easier to make copies of "downloaded" music, but the fact is a copy can be made of most CD's and DVD's with minimum effort these days, even those media's which are protected can be ripped using freely available rippers so the argument that second hand downloaded material cannot be sold second hand because of duplication potential it an extremely weak and flawed one, but one which doesn't surprise me given the media giants attitudes.

    Question is, do you think the sale of second hand downloads should be legal or do you think a download isvulnerableand should be prevented from being resold?


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      #2

      Claw

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        What's mine is mine !!!! I paid for it, meaning I own it, so I should be able to do what I feel fit to do with it. If I'm wrong then I'm wrong, but that is my opinion.



          #3

          FutureShock

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            Seems to me this is one of those rulings that will eventually get buried in oblivion, and everyone will just live with it. It looks to me like it could be built on, however, and eventually lead to some pretty cool rules.

            I still think the music, movie, and software industries could do themselves a huge favor by setting up unrippable retail CDs, DVDs, and downloads and then by making them uncopyable thereafter. This methodology would have to be accompanied by the aforementioned cool rules to be successful. Something like install the medium once on anything for a price or 1.5x the price to install on 2, etc. Inevitably prices would drop some for these types of items due to the fact that people just wouldn't have the spare change for as many of them as compared with today. That would lead to some competition and hence the lower prices.

            I kind of miss rummaging through the music store or movie rental store, so I would say this is a good ruling on a personal level. As for the sale of physical items of these types...no way. Totally different situation. In my honest opinion, noone should be able to tell anyone that they can't sell a registered CD or DVD that they paid for...



              #4

              google

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                OK here is what is about to happen. CD's and all other media forms will soon beobsolete. Why? Well because the big boys of music and film are making them obsolete, maybe not today or tomorrow, but soon and because distributing this type of stuff via the internet is much more productive for them, cheaper for them and they make more money from it (i.e. no overheads for physical media, storage, wages, etc) and instead just a server with data (music/film/etc).

                So, it's of no surprise then that the greedy bast big boys are quite happy to convince the court they are not complaining about people selling "physical" media (after all, they are purchasing a product, a physical product you can hold in your hand so to speak) but a download is a virtual product, you can't physically hold an MP3 in your hand and the courts agree with this (but put it on USB stick and what do you have?) so it's "technically" different and doesn't fall into the same category (apparently).

                So let's fast forward 5 years when the big boys have eventually phased out all physical media and now it's only possible to download the latest music from the net which you cannot resell. They've managed to stop the legal trade of selling second hand goods but still haven't came anywhere near to solving the real issue of piracy and they never will, so they'll do second best, stop any legal entity allowing people to perform reasonable acts with items they have paid for in the first place. After all, if they can't profit from the redistribution of material, why should anyone else.


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                  #5

                  marko

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                    I agree partly with you FS, if they don't want people copying their media (in whatever form it comes in) they should (surely) be able to come up with a foolproof way of disallowing this!!. However, the biggest problem I have with this entire case is the fact they have managed to convince a court that media on a CD is different from media that is downloaded - for me, there is no difference, both can be copied, manipulated and redistributed just as easily as one another.

                    Google hit the nail on the head - the media giants are going to phase out all physical forms of media and nail the legal people because they can't get to the illegal one's ... this is a cowardly act by the media giants because they can't compete with the "bad boys" so hit the easy targets which are you and me, and legal guys simply trying to do us all a service whilst making a few quid themselves.


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                      #6

                      FutureShock

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                        You guys have good arguments...

                        I don't know why, but I don't think it will be possible to phase out the physical media. You guys ever seen one of those mini installation disks for software? Don't know the size, but I guess they're about half the diameter of a regular CD/DVD. Well, pretty soon we'll have those but with whole movies (and in the best formats) or even more music than can go on a DVD now. At that point, it will become cost effective to own the physical medium for users, because they'll be able to carry around 20 or 30 disks at a time with no sweat. I guess we could see a CD/DVD player in some small devices like iPod size along these lines.

                        One thing that has been on my mind for quite some time is the disk changer. I have been looking forward to seeing what the entertainment and tech gurus could come up with for a disk changer that would be able to handle a large number of disks with a compact size...mostly for entertainment purposes. Honestly, there is nothing like owning the disk of a movie or a music album or owning the software disk to your software.

                        I can't really say why fully, but I don't think we're going to lose CDs and DVDs. I guess all I can say is part of life at least in the experiences. I think the entertainment industry will get that point eventually and start to focus on bringing the best experiences to people instead of just the smallest devices...



                          #7

                          marko

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                            FS, I see a vastly different future to you my friend ... downloads are the fast growing in trend and will most definitely shape the future of music and movie sales without a doubt, it's actually happening right now.

                            As for the physical mediums being able to contain far more data than they can right now, did it never occur to anyone that the data required to produce an album could actually fit on a CD with something like 600Mb to spare, yet the record companies insist on releasing "double albums"?. No?. Well, if we say that the average MP3 is something like 10Mb (which is way over the norm) and we have an average of 10 tracks per album, that's 100Mb of data - on an average CD we can fit 700Mb of data, so in reality we could have 70 songs on one CD album but I don't see anyone from the media companies keen to convert us all over to using MP3 only CD's that would allow them to fit "double albums" onto one CD?. Anything which allows them to charge more, yet cost them less is what drives the music and movie industry, and with no physical media cost's associated with downloads from the internet, it's really only a matter of time before they switch me thinks :)


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                              #8

                              FutureShock

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                                Yes, I see where you are coming from on all of that marko.

                                LOL...the music industry will do anything for an album of songs to count the equal of a movie. I think that's what's in the album on a CD thing.

                                I know what you mean. I think these are some of the quirks of the entertainment business we'll all end up living with, but I think we'll see a world full of both the physical and the downloaded mediums. I do think entertainment will come up with some new formats and protect them, but I also think it's likely they'll sell the old rippables right next to them. In that way, Pirate Bay and Kim Dotcom will still be getting theirs I guess. Seriously, entertainment is about 90% a joke when it comes to these issues. They all just love to play pirate and rip each other off. No way anyone will get them to fully do away with the ripping business...

                                ...and then there's "One eyed Bill" Gates and "Jolly Steve" Jobs. Not going to even go there...



                                  #9

                                  Guest_James (Jim) Hillier_*

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                                  I have very little sympathy for the media industry, they create their own problems by charging exorbitant prices for their end products. The industry generates income annually measured in the billions yet they are forever whining about lost revenue. Check out the numbers for some of the leading performers; Michael Jackson for example accumulated around half a billion dollars during his short lifetime, and that is just his own personal share - goodness knows how many billions are involved once you take the entire infrastructure into account.

                                  The solution to the media companies complaints actually lies in their own hands... reduce the end price of their product to a reasonable dollar value and many people will no longer feel the need to 'cheat' the system.

                                  Media companies are raking in billions of dollars annually yet expect the humble man on the street to pay through the nose for its products. The justice system's time and resources would be better spent looking into how media companies can justify maintaining their exorbitant pricing structure while raking in millions of dollars profit each year... it does not compute!

                                  So, yes... people should definitely be permitted to sell on digital media.

                                  My question is this... if selling on second hand downloads (or digital media) is illegal, who is going to police it and how are they going to police it?



                                    #10

                                    Claw

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                                      You got that right marko, I just bought a Led Zeppelin and a Bruce Springsteen set and both consisted of double CDs. Like you said buddy, money drives their reasoning.








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